17.04.1997

Establishing the socialist alternative on Merseyside

Helen Ellis spoke to Chris Jones, Socialist Labour candidate for Knowsley on Merseyside. He was the local brigade chair of the Fire Brigades Union until he left the service four years ago

What has been the focus of the campaign?

I am standing against George Howarth, who is New Labour’s spokesperson on the fire service. During the fire brigade dispute 18 months ago he declared he was going to be an arbiter and within a week he told the FBU to settle on the employers’ terms.

The Liverpool dockers obviously have a lot of support in the area. Interestingly George Howarth appeared at a dockers’ meeting for the first time last week. Of course the SLP has given a lot of support to the dockers and we have been putting a leaflet out with Jimmy Nolan, SLP member and chair of the dockers’ shop stewards committee, endorsing our election campaign.

What national issues will you be raising?

In a place like Knowsley it has to be jobs, because the area has suffered massively over the last few years. The SLP is arguing for full employment, unlike New Labour, and has already started organising against the Jobseekers Allowance.

The welfare state has been abandoned by Labour. All the things that people on the ground have associated with Labour have been abandoned, which is why the SLP can make its voice heard.

The constitutional question has taken centre stage again recently, in terms of Blair’s parish council for Scotland. Is that something you will be raising?

In the public meeting that launched the campaign I put forward the argument - endorsed by Arthur Scargill - that all the social and economic changes that we want to see can only be achieved by political change. That political change involves a republic, changing the electoral system and all the issues around devolution.

At the moment the SLP has not got a clear policy on that, and I would hope that we do adopt one. My view is that a federal republic is the only option. If you don’t want to fall into nationalism, you have to say that you recognise the right of Scotland and Wales to self-determination, but we would argue that we should use our strength together. Proportionately more Scottish people are now republican than in England and we should use that radical movement not just in Scotland itself, but for the rest of the United Kingdom and Europe.

Europe is another central issue in the election campaign. I know there are differences on the question within the SLP, though the policy is to ‘get out’ of Europe.

The SLP is fighting the election on a clear policy of opposition to all European institutions. I have my own personal views on that which I have expressed before the election and will continue to express afterwards. But I am fighting the election on the SLP’s platform. Merseyside SLP have supported the European March for Jobs that began last Saturday. I would support that sort of initiative.

What is your view of socialism? Do you consider yourself a revolutionary?

I do. I think there is room in the SLP for people who are revolutionaries and those who are not. I don’t think socialism can be achieved in one country, but I think we can start to make significant changes that can build towards socialism.

By socialism I mean a society where working people have political power. It is not simply nationalisation. Public ownership is the only way in which you can ensure that working people have control over the institutions which dominate their lives, but those institutions are global now. So socialism must be international, but its root is political.

It is a stage towards communism: that is, a completely different sort of life which has to be materially built through socialism. Communism, for example, rests on plenty and, while the system we have is potentially one of plenty, we still have millions of people around the world starving.

What would you say to those on the left that still advocate a vote for Labour and criticise the SLP for standing?

I think one of the most remarkable things about the SLP is that we have managed to get together 60-plus candidates within the space of a year. This contrasts sharply with organisations like the Socialist Workers Party, which has the material resources and the people and could easily stand candidates. You have got to have a viable alternative put before people, and that includes in elections.

One of the SWP’s arguments is that elections are irrelevant. Presumably you don’t think parliamentary elections can legislate in socialism, so what is the point of standing?

The arguments for ignoring elections are bizarre. The SWP would be the first to argue that what has happened in the last 18 years is appalling. Elected representatives clearly can make a difference within capitalism. Secondly, revolutionaries argue that you need to stand in elections to carry your message to the widest number of people. Indeed the SWP has reprinted a book on the Bolsheviks in the tsarist Duma. It stood candidates in the 1970s, but the tactical position it adopted since then has now become like a principle, that you can’t stand in elections - when the Bolshevik practice clearly shows that we should.

Will you be advising workers to vote Labour in constituencies where the SLP is not standing?

We are arguing for our supporters to vote for the policies closest to the SLP and that would mean on Merseyside a vote for candidates of the Socialist Party. I will be voting for the SP in my constituency.

The SP in Merseyside is extremely strong. The activity of many SLP members in whatever organisation they might have been in before, would have been alongside Militant and now the SP. So there is a strong working relationship which is very positive.

If I was faced with some raving Tory, I would be tempted to vote Labour if there was no socialist standing. It’s not a principle not to vote Labour. If l couldn’t use my vote for a principled candidate, I would use it tactically.

The circumstances in this day and age in which I would advise others to vote Labour would have to be pretty extreme. I might consider voting for Plaid Cymru or Scottish National Party candidates who have a good track record.

What is your view on Arthur Scargill’s draft constitution? There are members arguing for a more democratic constitution and for the right of affiliation for groups like the SP and ourselves.

It is an issue which will have to be addressed after the election. We have already found that it has been a shackle, shown by the leadership’s abandonment of it: for example, the date of the congress and the changing of leading positions. It is formal and has not been built by the organisation in a practical way. In those circumstances I don’t think you can apply it formally to the membership, which is what is being done.

Would you be in favour of the SLP becoming a rallying point for left groups, rather than excluding them?

I would hope that after the election moves can be made towards establishing a single socialist alternative rather than a number of different organisations that we have at present. I think the SLP has a major role to play in that.