27.08.2008

A bigger share

The One Wales agreement has been the basis of the Plaid Cymru-Labour Party coalition government in Cardiff for just over a year. The agreement incorporates moves towards a referendum on extending the powers of the Welsh assembly. Left Plaid Cymru assembly member Leanne Wood has been accused by critics of putting socialism before nation, of even being a member of the CPGB. Bob Davies spoke to her about the political situation, the question of independence and the principle of workers' unity

How much progress has been made by the Labour-Plaid Cymru coalition on the referendum?

Progress has been a little slow, but with the recent launch of the All Wales Convention things are moving in the right direction. That body will engage with people throughout various forums throughout the whole of Wales on the question of devolution generally. It is quite democratic.

For Plaid Cymru members, the commitment to a referendum and the commitment from the Labour Party to campaign for a ‘yes’ vote in that referendum were key questions in our decision to go into coalition with Labour in the first place. It is fundamental that such a referendum takes place. To be honest, I think it’s important to Labour members as well, because there may well be a Tory government in Westminster in the near future. We need to obtain maximum powers for the assembly prior to that possible election result in order to protect people in Wales from the worst excesses from any Conservative government.

What do you mean by maximum powers?

Ultimately I mean independence: an independent Wales within a federated Europe. But I’m talking about fighting for maximum powers within the constraints of the 2006 Government of Wales Act. Any referendum that will be triggered will be within the definitions of that act. What we want is to pass a referendum which will give the Senydd law-making powers within the areas that are currently devolved.

So you’re talking about two things then - the eventual goal and the politics that will surround any coming referendum?

Yes, but they are linked, of course.

But isn’t there a conflict? As you know, the current situation is that Westminster can still veto any proposed new laws in Wales. As things stand at the moment, the British parliament, even after a successful referendum on extending powers to the assembly, would still have the final say. The Welsh assembly and, indeed, the Scottish parliament won’t actually have full law-making powers, including the right to break from Westminster if the country’s citizens choose to do so. In that sense there is a democratic deficit. A referendum is not going to change that.

I would agree with you about the deficit. Unfortunately, that is as far as we can go, given the constraints of the act at this point in time. The choice is to fight for the referendum on extending powers. For Plaid members, rejecting that would be a backward step.

What about the democratic demand to do away with the constitutional monarchy and for genuine representative democracy? How does that tie in with your republicanism?

I think the whole referendum campaign that will take place in the next few years, particularly through the All Wales Convention, will allow for some important questions to be debated. I agree it is important to raise the issue of the monarchy and the failings of British unionism. I will do so myself. However, whilst that debate needs to take place, the question of the monarchy isn’t an issue that would be resolved at this stage. I believe people should view the opportunities for debate on Welsh powers as a stepping-stone towards sovereignty rather than looking at it as a complete process.

You only have to look at Scotland to see how important the actual issue of independence is or is becoming. That’s why I’m backing Adam Price MP’s ‘Independence Initiative’ for Wales, which will be launched later this summer. As I said earlier, I’d like to see this country as an independent state within a federation of European states. However, we’re far from that point at the moment. What’s happening in Scotland is of great interest and bound to have an effect on what people are thinking here in Wales, as well as people in the other countries that make up the UK.

The demand for a federal republic for Britain not only incorporates the end of the constitutional monarchy system: it raises the question of class unity. We believe the call for independence is actually divisive, splitting the British working class on Welsh, Scottish and English lines and reducing our ability to unitedly challenge the undemocratic UK state.

I just don’t see it has to be the case that calling for independence is divisive. There could be all kinds of opportunities opening up to increase links with workers right across Europe and thus strengthen solidarity on a wider basis generally, whether we called for independence or not. So I don’t think campaigning for independence is necessarily the threat to workers’ unity you say it is.

Of course, we need to remain vigilant because the forces of rightwing politics, particularly in England in the form of the British National Party, the Tory right and other dubious organisations in Britain, could be strong within the current climate and we need to be careful that developments in Wales (and Scotland) don’t mitigate against positive and progressive working class politics. But I think we can do that by cooperating and working together, albeit under different and independent politics, as we have now.

People in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland don’t get a great deal from the union as it is currently constituted. To be honest, I am of the view that Wales could be much better going it alone - reducing poverty here, for example. At the moment Wales has around 80% of the per capita GDP of Britain - on the Isle of Anglesey it is as low as 58%. We could do much better if we had control of macro-economic affairs, of taxation, and if we had the powers to decide how much we wanted to spend on defence, for example. I would strongly argue that we could reprioritise our public spending and shift money from defence into health and education. So I see this whole period as an opportunity to create a different kind of politics in Wales and want to work with similar-minded people in England to create a different kind of politics in that country too.

I work on the basis that small is beautiful. We’ve got 2.75 million people living here - we could tailor our politics and policies to meet the needs of this population. It would be much easier to organise this way than for the Westminster government to look after 60 million people.

But it’s surely not just a question of having greater economic control. After all, running Wales from Cardiff, as opposed to London, is hardly going to empower workers.

Well, I just see the opportunity of achieving more powers for the Welsh assembly in the current climate as something that is realistic. That is not to ignore what you’ve raised. Indeed, I think it would be foolish to do so. However, while working class politics has been under attack for probably two decades or more in Britain, I think that there is still a strong working class identity alive and kicking in Wales.

The politics of the One Wales government reflect that, and I see that programme as providing an opportunity that can be used to our advantage.

That’s my starting point. I see Welsh politics and working class politics as intertwined.