04.07.2001

Expelled by the SWP inquisition Eric Karas describes his final interrogation at the hands of the SWP thought police

What is clear to me now is that the Socialist Workers Party leadership behave in an autocratic and arbitrary manner, and that the rank and file exercise very little control. Anyone who attempts to raise political questions contrary to the line of the leadership, soon finds themselves under scrutiny and facing expulsion. Last year I wrote a short piece for the SWP pre-conference bulletin. This followed my mounting concerns about the SWP's attitude to the Socialist Alliance during the Euro elections, its political line on Kosova and the tendency to downplay issues of democracy in Britain. It finally dawned on me that we needed a programme. But in putting pen to paper I signed my membership death warrant. I was finally expelled in January this year. What follows is a verbatim record of an interview that took place at my home with Martin Smith, an SWP central committee member, and the local full-timer, Viv Smith. It gives an insight into how the SWP regards open polemic and inner-party democracy. Note that I had no witnesses or friendly representative. I had not been informed about being interviewed in connection with charges brought against me. I was only told that the comrades wanted to talk about the future of the Bedfordshire Socialist Alliance. But as soon as they sat down matters took a different course.

Martin Smith I'll be honest with you, we're not happy at all and I'll tell you why we're not happy. It's because when you're in a revolutionary organisation there has to be commitment from above: from the full-timers, members of the CC, etc ... Also our members have a commitment to follow basic guidelines, basic political principles and if that don't fit then there is a problem. And I've had a number of complaints about you now, from branch members and other people in this area, and I think that they are quite serious. To be honest with you, I think they are extremely serious. And the first one is that you are "¦ you don't have to write this all down.

Eric Karas I feel like I do.

Martin Smith This is not a court and I won't have this minuted.

Eric Karas I'm not minuting anything. I'm just making notes for myself. I think that is fair enough.

Martin Smith There are a number of complaints about you and I think it is quite serious ... when we are in a revolutionary organisation we stand together and we work together and if we have disagreements with one another then we air them out inside the group and we thrash them out and we don't conduct our dirty washing in public. And that's the first complaint I've had: that you don't conduct your affairs inside the organisation, that you conduct them outside of it. That you attack politically some of our members and that's what I've got a complaint about.

Eric Karas Who have I attacked?

Martin Smith Well, that's what I'm asking you. I'm asking you if that's true or not.

Eric Karas Well, I've been attacked.

Martin Smith I don't care. I'm asking you if you've attacked our members ... politically, because if you say no, I'm going to show you a letter which you circulated.

Eric Karas A letter?

Martin Smith I'll show you it now [hands Eric Karas copy of an e-mail from Luton SWP branch secretary to the SWP centre attaching a copy of an e-mail placed on the Beds Socialist Alliance e-group on Friday November 24, 2000, entitled 'Who is spamming who?' Pause to read letter].

Eric Karas I know about that.

Martin Smith Well, I'm glad you know about it because as far as I'm concerned its totally unacceptable. Because, one, we don't have ... you know, if you've got a problem with what comrades are saying, we say it to each other, we don't put it out on e-mail ... Who is spamming who? What kind of thing is that? ... and I want to read the last bit to you: "Let's not get scratched by reformism and get gangrene, shall we? As I think I said ... recently the programme is there to inoculate us." This is sectarian rubbish. This is completely against the principles of the party, and there you are writing about someone else for everyone to read in the Socialist Alliance.

Eric Karas And, yes, [comrade X] started writing about me.

Martin Smith I don't care. I'm not interested in that, right? I'm interested in what you've done. I'm not interested in what X has done; if we have to talk we'll talk to X separately. But I'm talking about what you've done, and actually I think it's out of order. I think if you're going to start circulating things "¦ one, about the programme, secondly, complete constitutional rubbish "¦

Eric Karas Yes, I had a discussion with [central committee member] Sean Vernell about the programme and I agreed to restrict my contributions.

Martin Smith Yes, but this carries on, you see.

Eric Karas This was before I had the conversation with Sean Vernell.

Martin Smith I don't care. We'll come back to that in a minute about the programme stuff, but this ... We just don't conduct ourselves like this in our organisation. It's a fundamental breach of trust. If I say something to you inside the party organisation, I expect it to be kept in good faith and we discuss it between ourselves. I don't expect every other sectarian inside the Bedfordshire Socialist Alliance to be discussing it. I think it's just totally out of order. I've never seen anything ... in all my time in the party have I ever come across someone writing about another comrade like this ... never. I've been in the party now 18 years and I have never ever seen ... and I think you should resign. On that alone you should resign ... carry on if you want ... To carry on attacking people like that is out of order.

Eric Karas I haven't carried on attacking people like that.

Martin Smith Well, do you think that is justifiable? Do you think that's right?

Eric Karas I think we had an open debate, which X started.

Martin Smith I'm not interested in what X has done.

Eric Karas It comes down to problems in the branch, doesn't it? The branch was all over the place.

Martin Smith And you're the one behind it all.

Eric Karas Behind what?

Martin Smith Behind everything that is going wrong, whether it's the programme "¦

Eric Karas Behind what?

Martin Smith Let's get back to this. Let's carry on then. The constitution.

Eric Karas Nothing is going wrong.

Viv Smith The constitution document that you e-mailed through on the Sunday, the day of the Bedfordshire Socialist Alliance meeting, comes back to the heart of really the idea of the programme and I don't think that you have at all the idea ... The constitution document explicitly refers to the programme, not winning people to the alliance ... that people have to accept the programme.

Eric Karas I was asked to write the constitution. It was fitting in with the programme which SWP members voted for and helped write.

Martin Smith I think if you had been at the last meeting, our comrades said that they were against the programme. You've been arguing for programme ...

Eric Karas But they sat there.

Martin Smith I don't care what they did ... You've been arguing for a programme for a long time ... you've been whittering on about it ... you've been told not to do it. You've manoeuvred.

Eric Karas Now hang on "¦

Martin Smith You got it in the constitution.

Eric Karas I agreed with Sean Vernell on the phone I would not mention programme in the party.

Martin Smith No, but you mention it in other organisations. This completely goes against ...

Eric Karas But we sat down with other Bedfordshire Socialist Alliance members, as members of the SWP and actually worked up a programme.

Martin Smith I don't care, because what you're doing is wheedling in another political organisation's ideas. All right, maybe the comrades have sucked for it, but I ain't sucking for it: I know what you're doing; I know that you are trying to put an RDG programme through inside the organisation.

Eric Karas Not an RDG programme. More like a communist programme actually.

Martin Smith Our comrades know just exactly what you are trying to do. So, one, we have you attacking our members on the internet, which is automatically a disciplinary offence. Secondly, you were asked not to discuss programme after conference and you then wheedle it into the constitution. Thirdly, we ask you ... we go to a meeting with [a former SWP member - expelled] who verbatimly says exactly what I said at a branch meeting ... And when we ask you, did you tell that expelled member? ... Did you tell him what went on? Did you say, 'no I didn't'? No, you didn't. You said, one, "I don't remember", two, "It's dialectical, isn't it?" and, three, "I don't believe he would say that". Any other person would say 'no, I didn't'. So really I've come to the conclusion that we have to part company, because really it's gone too far. Because you haven't broken: you are politically opposed to what we are about as an organisation; you don't have our politics ... and therefore there has got to be a parting.

Eric Karas But I'm a state capitalist and I believe in the permanent arms economy, etc.

Martin Smith Yeah, but you believe a whole lot of other rubbish.

Viv Smith I have to say, Eric, that that e-mail goes to the heart of the ... of the worrying things in it is when you say ... you know, I'm not prepared to tag on to the latest fashion or however you put it, I'm not prepared to drop the programme because I'm told to do so ... you put that in an e-mail. Now you know whether or not Sean Vernell had a long conversation with you on the phone, I think the fact of the matter is that when decisions are being made democratically within the organisation, or when comrades are challenging you ...

Eric Karas We made democratic decisions inside the Bedfordshire Socialist Alliance.

Martin Smith But we are not SA members first and party members second. We're party members first and SA members second.

Viv Smith Absolutely.

Eric Karas But I threw myself into building the Beds SA and that is the party's line.

Martin Smith But of course because you've got a completely distorted view of what we are about, that's why you support that bloody programme ... which is the most, you know, completely ... the whole ... the entire Socialist Alliance nationally has condemned.

Eric Karas Condemned?

Martin Smith They've condemned it.

Eric Karas So how come I've had a mailing this morning from the Socialist Alliance nationally distributing a draft programme and inviting me as a member to make amendments?

Martin Smith Of course you're entitled to make amendments to it, but you're a party member and we do not go along with arguments about Ireland in there, the monarchy in there. It's about ... and when you start writing "It's to inoculate us against the reformists", what kind of rubbish is that? We're not about inoculating ourselves against the reformists. We're about working with those to the right of us. We're about saying to people, we may agree on many things but disagree on others: about Ireland, about a woman's right to choose, and have them in the organisation. And what your doing ... is you're putting forward the ... absolutely ... the most sectarian section of the Socialist Alliance putting forward their ideas. And you're consciously doing it ... It's not that you just done it ... You've been battling on with this argument for months. And we just think its time to stop. We don't like you arguing and attacking members inside our organisation.

Eric Karas Well, I've been attacked.

Martin Smith Well, I don't care.

Viv Smith Your name was not mentioned in comrade X's email. His e-mail refers to an e-mail from another Socialist Alliance member supporting what that member is saying, and saying that the idea of sitting in seven-hour meetings ... writing about Lenin ... he did not mention your name. It's the principle of the way in which we conduct ourselves.

Martin Smith Which you say in the letter, 'I don't know who comrade X can mean, I can't recall anyone but me [writing about Lenin] so I guess he is aiming his comments at me.' So you clearly there admitted that X didn't put their name to it, didn't mention you.

Viv Smith Absolutely right, to be honest, because it was inappropriate to have done so.

Martin Smith Absolutely. That is wrong politically, but instead of you carrying it out you carried it on. So we've come to the point now where we feel it is time to part company. And there are two ways around it ... One is that you can resign, which I much prefer ... Alternatively I can expel you on the spot right now. I don't mind which one: you take your pick ... It's your choice.

Eric Karas I'm not making that choice now.

Martin Smith Well, you are because I'll make it for you instead. I'm not leaving this room without one answer or the other. I don't care personally. I've gone through every democratic structure in the organisation. Everyone's agreed. Everyone was completely horrified when they read that [letter]. That alone you let off a smoking gun. Secondly I know you were warned by Sean Vernell. I know you've been argued with by me. I know you've been argued with by Viv. And it goes on and on and on. And I'm sick of it. I'm sick of that Socialist Alliance which I think is absolutely rotten to the core. And I think you have been part of that. I think that you have done absolutely nothing to change it. You've gone along with every little sectarian manoeuvre by the RDG to the stage now where we have them passing motions attacking the party, which is completely out of order and completely condemned by anyone. And just think ... I've had enough of it ... We've done extremely well, we had a very good public meeting on Thursday. We've had a very good intervention around Vauxhall.

Eric Karas I was at the public meeting.

Martin Smith I know you was, so you know how good it was.

Eric Karas I don't know if I would agree with that.

Martin Smith Well, that doesn't matter anyway now ... we have a very good branch in Luton. We've done extremely well. The comrades are doing the best they can. And all you are ... is a different set of politics to us and that's it.

Eric Karas Well, I'm not going to resign.

Martin Smith Well, now you're formally expelled.

Afterword

The interrogation thus came to an end. I lodged an appeal to the Central Control Commission, which was heard in Luton on March 3 2001. At the appeal, where I was denied once again a witness or representative, my expulsion was confirmed. Currently I am still waiting for my final rights of appeal, promised in writing by the CCC, after I contacted members of the CCC and the local SWP full-timer.

The situation was probably summed up by the CCC member I happened to meet at the Unison local government conference. After blanking me twice, on the third time of being asked, "When do you think I will receive my rights of appeal?", the comrade shrugged and said, "Probably never" as she walked off. This was not merely indicative of her contempt for me, but for the democratic rights of all SWP members.

The SWP has no culture of democracy. SA members must therefore remain vigilant in forming a new party with them involved so prominantly. The SWP might have been exerting a light touch when it comes to work within the Socialist Alliance currently, but they have another side when it comes to democracy internally. I hope that I am the last comrade to be expelled from the SWP for daring to think independently. I also hope to see the SWP as a faction in a new party, as they are within the SSP "¦ then perhaps a climate of toleration will become the norm.