13.02.1997
Mounting the challenge to New Labour
Mick Cullen, one of the sacked Merseyside dockers, is standing for the Socialist Labour Party in the Wirral South by-election on February 27. Peter Manson asked him about the SLP’s prospects
How has the campaign been going?
The big parties have been up here for three or four weeks, even before the writ for the by-election was moved. But they seem to think the only problem up here is the future of the grammar schools. What about unemployment, the Jobs Seekers Allowance, the anti-trade union laws, the underfunding of health and education?
Some people have got mixed feeling about the SLP standing: they say we will split the Labour vote. One pensioner said to me the other day, “I’m a Tony Benn man myself.” I said, “Then you should vole for us.” You won’t get workers’ policies from New Labour.
Blair has moved so far to the right. The Tory press and big business have been hammering us all along and now they are supporting Blair. If he wins this by-election, he will think he’s got a mandate for his rightwing party. But if our vote keeps Labour out, they will realise they can’t take workers for granted. We are not dead and buried.
Just look at the calibre of the MPs representing the Labour Party. They say their candidate in Wirral South has only been a member for six months.
We would even be prepared to stand against Benn, Livingstone and Skinner in the future, although Arthur Scargill said at the rally last night that we won’t be contesting those seats this time.
There has been a furore here in London because Brent East SLP wanted to oppose Ken Livingstone.
Arthur made it clear that that person is not a member.
How did the rally go?
More than 100 people came to listen to Arthur, Jimmy Nolan and Doreen MacNally from Women of the Waterfront. Unfortunately Joe Marino and Bob Crow couldn’t make it.
There were a few old-style Labour supporters, including one ‘Marxist’, who complained we were “causing a split” when things were so close. They said it would have been better to “stay and fight”
I told the rally that I was sick and tired of Labour MPs trying to convince union members at meetings I have addressed that Tony Blair is on a long lead and they are waiting to rein him in.
How do you think the SLP will do?
I was out on the Heswell estate and people were saying they cannot vote for New Labour. Blair might be in for a bit of a shock.
What is your own background in the workers’ movement?
I have never been in the Labour Party or any other political party before I joined the SLP, although I always voted Labour. I have been a trade unionist for 33 years and a TGWU committee member on the docks. I was sacked after 30 years.
As one of the delegates who’s been going round the country, I’ve seen that what’s happened to us is going on everywhere. Everywhere there are agency workers being brought in. It really made me sit up
So what sort of party should the SLP be?
We should not be like old Labour. Weare the Socialist Labour Party. We stand for socialism. We must look after the people who create the wealth. That’s why we have called for a minimum wage of £4.41 per hour in our election address.
I thought the SLP policy was for a minimum wage of two-thirds male median earnings.
Yes. It works out at that we’ll be lucky if we get £3.50 with New Labour.
What do you understand by socialism?
We must ditch capitalism. By socialism I mean the redistribution of wealth - a fair return for labour; a free NHS, including free prescriptions; fully comprehensive education; nurseries for all three-year-olds in the state system. In every major city there are people homeless, begging on the street, yet there are thousands of unemployed building workers.
But surely the things you describe have been achieved under capitalism in the past?
They’re never going to happen again under capitalism.
Some people say that socialism is the common ownership of the means of production, while others describe it as working people running their own lives.
I think working people should control their own lives. They should have a big say in production, in how it is produced and distributed. We are calling for trade unions to be stronger even than they were in the 70s.
We in the CPGB have called for all political groups to be allowed to join the SLP, but this is not possible under the present party rules. Do you think those rules should be changed?
All the fringe parties are doing the working class a disservice. Most average people are not interested in Marx, Lenin, Trotsky or Mao. What they want is a better lifestyle.
But don’t you think we need to learn the lessons of working class history, including those experienced by such leaders?
History is history. Like World War I or World War II. We should study it if it is going to advance us. But the working class is losing out with all the sectarian left groups arguing amongst themselves.
Do you think it is possible to end that by asking for all the existing groups to give up their own organisations and papers and simply join the SLP?
There is really not much difference between the left groups. Yes, they can do that. They should drop their papers and come in. After all, a name is nothing.
But would we all have equal rights to put forward our views in Socialist News?
I believe in democracy. I wouldn’t be in the SLP if people couldn’t have their own say.
Turning to the dockers, what is your opinion on the proposal for a workers’ cooperative?
In fact the proposal wasn’t for a co-op, but a workers’ supply company. I think it was a non-starter from the beginning. It was really an attempt to get the high ground.
There has been a media blackout. Only papers like Militant and Socialist Worker with their small readership have been giving us publicity. The mass media support the bosses and we have no right to reply.
We got some publicity, but now I think it will die a death.
How do you see the dockers’ struggle moving forward?
After 17 months we are getting more support from abroad than from this country, but we are not going to give in. Some of the lads are near 60 and they risk losing everything. But this dispute has never been about money.
By and large the working class let the miners down, but the dockers came out for eight days in support of them. What is needed now is action.
We’ve had support from all the left parties. We’re fighting not just for the dockers, but for all workers.
What role can the SLP play in the dockers’ dispute?
We want the repeal of all the anti-trade union laws. We can send that message to New Labour in the by-election and give them a fright.
Do you see a coordinating role for the SLP - not only in defending the dockers, but in leading the fightback?
The only two to call for a one-day general strike at the TUC last autumn were Arthur Scargill and Bob Crow. But at the moment we can only lead individual disputes. The SLP is only eight months old we have a lot more to do to get the party off the ground. When that happens we will be in a position to coordinate action.
If for example the SLP was the government of the day, all workers’ rights would be reinstated.
Do you think that an SLP government could introduce socialism through parliament?
The SLP wouldn’t go as far as other parties of the left, but our goal is to get someone in parliament. The only places where changes can realistically be made are in parliament and in councils.